New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

I am so much interested in breeders' views and oppinions about this breed, its standard and the many types of Collies that are bred nowadays... I strongly feel the standard either needs to be modified here and there, or we should accept there are several types of Collies... It's not only about breeders' views about the standard anymore... this current has went far beyond that. If you watch carefully, you'd see that different countries in Europe have completely different types of Collies. In one place they are of a smaller size and more fluffier, other place they are more classical and taller, there they are stronger in bones with heavy marked stops, here...... I don't give names as I don't want to hurt anyone or seem to dislike one type and like the other. It's not about my tastes here, it's just that I want to find out breeders' views about the subject. Thank you all in advance for your responses.

While I can't speak for the Collies in Europe and so I don't know the difference breeders are seeing in collies in different countries throughout Europe.... but in North America there are a lot of differences that can be seen in certain lines of Collies, or just in certain geographical locations....

Some different "families" or lines of Collies I see at shows are finer boned with big soft fluffy, incorrect coats, and have such horrible movement they couldn't move to save their lives!... but these big soft coats are pretty so they win.. even though their coat is so soft and incorrect they are like hot spot factories if they get out in the rain (I personally had a breeder with dogs from this similar family tell me to never let them out in the rain or to make sure they got totally dried after a bath so they don't get hot spots). How is this correct?? Collies were bred to be working dogs, out in the cold, damp, rainy weather... how can be working dogs if they can't be out in the rain???

There are other lines who do a lot of winning, whos dogs are so tiny and cute with nice little coats, but they could be mistaken for oversized shelties by some non-dog people who have no idea what they are looking at...

I personally don't think standards need to be changed or modified at all, and I don't think we should just accept that their are several different types of Collies .... I think that would be a very wrong thing to do for this breed.. you change the standard and it will only change the breed even more, and as time goes on you wouldn't have a true collie anymore.... You shouldn't change the standard to meet what the Collies are looking like at this point in time, rather you should breed your dogs to more correctly meet the standard. what I think needs to be done is breeders need to stop being kennel blind to what faults or virtues their dogs have, they need to stop breeding dogs to match the fads that are going on at the time, and judges need to stop rewarding these dogs who do not correctly meet the standard, but rather meet what fad is being bred at that current time.....

Obviously everyone is going to have their own interpretation of what the breed standard means.... what the correct eye is, what the correct stop is, what the correct ear set is etc... but when the dog obviously has an incorrect soft fluffy coat... or is very under or oversized, or dogs that have such horrible movement they can't move without banging their hocks together or crossing over in the front.. these dogs should not be winning at shows... and if they do win... just because they are winning at the shows, people should not breed their dogs to them or accept these faults in their own dogs, just beacuse others are winning with these same faults...

Just my opinion....

Just wonder - in your opinion what part of the current Standard should be changed, Olivia?

Interesting question......I DON'T want to change the standard, I'd love to own and breed dogs that should look like some dogs in the past used to....but it seems that (and Spiritwind pointed it excellently), if you aim to breed and get the chance to breed that type of collie, you won't have any chance in the strong world of competition. Without shows, you don't exist, you don't have what to do with your progenies, it's a long chain of reactions.... so people are strongly forced to get somewhere in the middle of this current. They adapt their pleasures and preferences to the actual tendencies and requirements. Again, spiritwind underlined very well the fact that, at least judges should be less tolerant....
Collies nowadays strongly changed into show dogs, with less character and temperament than in the past....they became more fluffier, are not so tall like they used to be, head changed enormously (try to read the part of the standard where head and stop are described), the whole outlook changed a lot. If you stick to the standard and breed Collies accordingly, you'll be in the situation to be told by judges and other breeders that you own the "old" or "classic" type.... but what does "old" and "classic" mean if the standard hasn't changed????? I simply wonder.
I am not very inspired right now, as soon as I'll get to new ideas I will get back here.

What you said Oliva makes a lot of sense... about the Collies changing.

I know you are talking about the European collies..but some of what you are saying I can see in the American collies. Temperament wise, especially... I absolutly cannot stand a dog that is just a lazy house dog, or acts like a yard ornament. What I mean is, are these collies that have no drive to do anything. I see it a lot in badly bred pet quality collies that came into the vet clinics I used to work at (have worked at vet clinics for the past 9yrs).... these dogs are just laid there, didn't care about anything, were soft tempered dogs that just didn't care.... they aren't animated or interested in doing anything. This is why Collies get the reputation of not being good working dogs anymore, or not being good performance dogs. Because people have selectively bred for looks and don't care about this working dog temperament they should have.

With my dogs I like dogs that can be great house dogs, that are smart, and loyal and great with kids but soon as they step foot outside they are up and ready to do anything...run thru the woods, get dirty, be dogs.... dogs that have the drive to be working dogs, dogs that have this intensity about them and a look in their eyes that says "What are we gonna do next"... "Lets go, lets go, lets go..." LOL I think being able to breed roughs and smooths together in north american helps with that some... because while I don't see a huge difference in temperament between the different coat varieties, alot of people see the smooths as the more intense working dogs....

I know the European dogs are 2 inches shorter than the american dogs.. so as far as size goes, in america there are absolutely lines of Collies that are smaller than the american standard calls for.. I personally prefer dogs to be in the mid to upper end of the size standard... with good bone and substance.... not heavy dogs, but dogs that don't look like they are going to break when they are out in the field working... I can't stand stick legs on a collie...

Now in the European dogs, especially the roughs, I can really see the head changes.... I don't want to offend anyone, or start any kind of argument... but like Olivia said, the heads have changed. If you look thru collie books or old magazines and look at pictures of the some of the champion European Collies from the late 1800's and early 1900's that were imported into America their heads are TOTALLY different in appearance than the European collies of today. Same for the amount of coat.. the Collies back then didn't have these huge fluffy coats... and while I know for the most part the european collies tend to have more coat than the americans... even the current american collies have more coat than the collies imported into america in the early 1900's... but I think a lot of the coat differences is in how we (show people) groom and care for the coats today.. as opposed to how they were groomed and cared for over 100 yrs ago.

Below are some links I found of some well known rough collies that were imported into the US from Europe in the early 1900's.. wow.. how times have changed.

GB & AM CH Wishaw Clinker
A dog that was imported to America from Europe in the early 1900's

GB CH Parbold Piccolo
Another great dog that was imported into the US in the early 1900's. According to the book Collie Concept, the day he arrived in america his owner let him loose and the dog ran away and was never seen again... this was considered one of the greatest loses to the american collie fancy at the time..

GB CH Anfield Model
Born in 1902, he was imported into america and was a highly touted dog, because he was the ideal that many breeders were striving for in head and expression

I found another link with pictures of some of the great collies of the past that I though I'd share.. lots of great photos!

Collie Breed History - Pictures of the past

Wow Spiritwind, thanks a lot for all these links, I'm just looking at those pics now....

Olivia wrote:Wow Spiritwind, thanks a lot for all these links, I'm just looking at those pics now....

No problem.. I love looking up pictures of Collies from the past. If you click on those first 3 links I posted and it takes you to the dogs page with a picture and pedigree.. some of the names in the pedigrees are unlined and liked to more pictures.. so you can go back thru the pedigrees on some of the names and see a lot of different collies of the past...

If i know well the English dogs changind started with Lynway Sandknocker and Brilyn Supertramp.
They have a new expression and every body started to prefer it. The breeders started to forget that collies are workdogs too, and they made a showdog from them. It wouldn'T be a problem, but i hate when i met the trainers in dog schools and they said me that "oh a collie, it would be a hard project." And obviusly it'S not true. My boy was learn much more shorter everything than the german sheperds. But That's something we can't forgot Collies aren'T "slavedogs" like german sheps, malinois ect... I have to show my boy that i adore what he does and then he does everything what i want, but if he start to bore it he will stop. That the differency i think. There are lot of collies who can learn agility, dog dancing who can take IPO just we have to find them, and we have to these type of sports with them not just the shows. Collies are excellent for me they are the best. But i really hope one day some of them can be a workdog as in the past. I will work with my every dog. I usually go to shows too but it'S not the most important thing to me.

I looked up those dogs: Lynway Sandknocker and Brilyn Supertramp

to see pictures of them... found a sight that had their pedigrees listed as well as pictures of some of the dogs behind him on their pedigrees... if you go back a few generations behind them you can really see the difference from how their grandparents or great grandparents looked... compared to them... so breeders just started like that look better so they decided to breed for it???

Collies get the same kind of treatment from trainers in the US... thinking they can't be working dogs, or really do anything more than be pets.... though it is getting better!!.. there are more and more collies in the US doing herding, or agility, search and rescue, tracking or even service dog work... and I've even seen photos of Collies doing Schutzhund....

I agree with you.. Collies aren't like German Shepherds.. but they are smart, working dogs... you just have to keep it fun and interesting otherwise they get bored and want to do something else...

I love my collies, and to me, there is no better breed... they can do anything you ask of them... Ive done herding with some of mine.... as well as I used to compete in Agility, someday I would love to be able to do it again, when I have time... currently I am doing Flyball with one of my Collies... while it took her a little while to get going with it (she isn't ball or toy motivated) now that she knows it.. she loves it and is very good!! can't wait to compete with her!!..

I am really happy that you agree with me. It's really nice that you worked with your dogs and do flyball with one of them. It is something to start to delete int the usual people's mind that they aren'T good-for-nothing. I am always very happy when i hear that. My dog has working dog title, at first lot of collie breeders thought that i hit my dog and that's why he do that sport.... I know they were envious but i think my dog isn't unique, there are many collie in the world who can do it. That's why i want to start my kennel, to tell people collies are wonderfull. I know i am too little for it, but Hungary there are many people who knows my collie, and tell me they weren't right, he is smart. Different but smart. He is not as fast as a border collie, never 'll be.

About Sandknocker and Supertramp, They are in every collies bloodline in hungary, and everybody used them. I know it's horrible, But it's unfortunately too. If you see my homepage bonomano.atw.hu there you find the way from Old Cockie to my dog. It's interesting i think. At the first picture you have to click to the picture and then the fotóalbum. In that menu you'll find an "old-timer collie" click to this picture, and then you can find the way of the collie changing.

Yes I agree! Just because they aren't border collies, and no, they won't be as fast.. but just because they aren't border collies doesn't mean they can't do it. Like I said before, I think Collies aer by far the best breed of dog.. and they can do anything you ask of them...

I went to your website and looked at all the pictures... from all the roughs going back to Trefoil and Old Cockie...

I have to say... looking thru all the pictures... there are several of the old time dogs I'd take now if they were alive!!! They could do very well in the ring over here in the US!..

Dogs in the old photos like....

Royal Ace of Rokeby - wow! I love him! He is absolutely beautiful! Good coat, great body, appears to have a really nice head, with a nice full round muzzle!!! Do you happen to know what year he was born or what years he was siring the most?? If he were alive today, I'd take him in a minute!!

Witchkraft of Rokeby - looks to be a very nice tricolor!!

Burwydne Bendelbury - another one I think is beautiful and again, if this dog was alive today, I'd take it!!... beautiful..

Pied Piper of Aberhill at Rixhown - in your photo album he also looks to be a very stunning dog

I also think Parbold Piccolo, who is a dog that was imported into the US in the early 1900's is a very nice dog... though after arriving to the US he was let loose to run on his owners property and disapeared the very day he arrived and was never seen again.... which was considered to be a huge loose to the american breeding programs at the time.

Anyway... that is a wonderful website you have... a great photo history of the Collie!!

Janna

I wrote quite long regarding this subject, i put all my heart and soul in it and in the end the text was lost because of a forum problem..... I could cry now As soon as I'll be able i'll write again.

Please write it again. But you should write it in Word at first.

just a quick piece of advice to spiritwind and Katamano. Please engage brain before opening mouth, if no brain and real knowledge it is better not to open mouth in first place!
Royal Ace one of the main dogs in the back pedigree of both Sandknocker & Supertramp, Witchcraft of Rokeby whilst the mother of Royal ace & Romney of rokeby was herself not a very good bitch at all, Pied Piper of Aberhill was a very nice but very small dog and guess what his breeding was almost identical to the mother of Sandknocker!
You talk about the dogs that went to america pre war do you really think that your own dogs look like that? also i do not know how long you have owned or bred collies i have to say that you do not appear to have had a great inflence on the breed either for good or bad, but if you have had more than one collie can you honestly say that all of your collies looked exactly the same? of course not one of the aspects of breeding animals is that you have to accept change because you are powerless to stop change, the best that you can hope for is that you can control the change in an beneficial way!
Lastly i would say to you both please do not tell us how to do it but please show us how to do it by breeding exceptional dogs that change the breed in the way that you desire and that all the breeders around europe would aspire to! I await your next litters and success in the ring and in the world of collies with great anticipation.
Kind regards, Boozer!