New types of Collies, where are we heading to?

Just a suggestion for you. I think you need to take your own advice and follow what you preach. You certainly haven't justified your knowledge or influence on the Collie breed...

At no time, in any post did I say my dogs looked like any of the dogs that were imported into the US back in the 1800's. Use your brain and reread carefully and slowly if needed.

You talk like you are some high and mighty person. I'd really love to hear about all your success with Collies, as based on your post you think you know much much more than anyone else.

Boozer wrote: i do not know how long you have owned or bred collies i have to say that you do not appear to have had a great inflence on the breed either for good or bad, but if you have had more than one collie can you honestly say that all of your collies looked exactly the same? of course not one of the aspects of breeding animals is that you have to accept change because you are powerless to stop change, the best that you can hope for is that you can control the change in an beneficial way!
Lastly i would say to you both please do not tell us how to do it but please show us how to do it by breeding exceptional dogs that change the breed in the way that you desire and that all the breeders around europe would aspire to! I await your next litters and success in the ring and in the world of collies with great anticipation.
Kind regards, Boozer!

First I do not live in Europe, I live in the US. So obviously I have American bred dogs. I am proud of those dogs. I have had been showing Collies for 15-16 yrs now. I have had a very limited number of litters, but have done well with them. I have finished champions on several dogs. I have several pointed and/or champion dogs/puppies I have bred. While not "In" collies as long as some, you have to start somewhere, and I have worked with breeders who have been breeding top winning dogs for 20-30-40+++ yrs....

I never said all my dogs looked like, of course they don't. But they do have a family resemblance. While I said (and do believe) the American collies of today, look MORE like the European dogs from the late 1800's and early 1900's.. than the European dogs of today look... you don't have to accept change, the goal is to IMPROVE on the dogs. You breed dogs TO a standard, you don't change a standard to meet what current dogs are looking like. You can breed toward a look, that is how you get families of dogs. If I go to a dog show I can tell just by the look of certain dogs what kennel they came from because while they dont' look EXACTLY the same, they have a family look to them.

Lastly I couldn't care less what you think or what your opinion is. I do this FOR me.. and for no one else but me. I do this because I love my dogs. If you don't like my dogs you can take a flying leap. I don't care. I'm not sure if you are a breeder that really knows anything.... or just someone who thinks they do, but my goal is not to impress you, as I couldn't care one bit what you think.

Spiritwind, thanks for your post. In America you have already changed the standard from the country of origin 2 inches at the shoulder is a hell of a lot! you also say that you don't have to accept change and then go on to say that your dogs do not look like the old dogs coming into America and you also say that American dogs now look more like European dogs than in the eighties what is that if it is not change? if you remember i said that we have to control change in a beneficial way, you say that we should look to improve the breed continuously, isn't that sort of the same thing? how do you improve with out changing anything?
Lastly, the ascerbic nature of my first post was because off the offhand way that a couple of great dogs that have done a great deal for the breed, of course not all of it good, that would be impossible, were just blamed for all the ills of the breed in Europe!
Glad to hear that you have had some suucess though.
Boozer

Boozer wrote:Spiritwind, thanks for your post. In America you have already changed the standard from the country of origin 2 inches at the shoulder is a hell of a lot! you also say that you don't have to accept change and then go on to say that your dogs do not look like the old dogs coming into America and you also say that American dogs now look more like European dogs than in the eighties what is that if it is not change? if you remember i said that we have to control change in a beneficial way, you say that we should look to improve the breed continuously, isn't that sort of the same thing? how do you improve with out changing anything?
Lastly, the ascerbic nature of my first post was because off the offhand way that a couple of great dogs that have done a great deal for the breed, of course not all of it good, that would be impossible, were just blamed for all the ills of the breed in Europe!
Glad to hear that you have had some suucess though.
Boozer

First... again you post none of your accomplishments with the Collie breed... so I don't see how you are even justified to make these comments.

Second, if you say the American's have already changed the standard. Explain one thing to me then.... when people say this all they ever talk about is the height. Well it certainly hasn't affected the working ability of the American Collie. Which is sort of what they were bred to be. They are getting more and more common as all around farm dogs here. On the family farm and in trials. Both roughs and smooths. They compete at herding trials against many other more commonly used herding breeds, border collies.. aussies...etc.. and do VERY well. They hold their own. How many 100% European bred Collies can or are stilled used today as a herding dogs, both at the home and at trials???? I'm on several Collie forums, all based in different parts of Europe. This one, which is a rough collie forum, another one that is a smooth collie forum, and another that is a forum for both roughs and smooths. There have been MANY smooth (and rough people) people on the forums that are horrified by the the majority of the current roughs in Europe because of their complete lack of working ability!!! among other things.....

Back to the height. There is no Disqualification in the standard for height. Yes, the standard says for males 24-26" tall for dogs and 22-24" tall for bitches. However I have several bitches who are barely 22" tall (so they would fit into your standard for max height). Some of my girls are even 21" tall. Why???? Because there are MANY other things to think about in breeding that height. If I have a great dog that is a little small... I'm not going to put her in a pet home because of that. You have to pick and choose what you can deal with and what you cannot. There are certain things I cannot tolerate. Its just a personal preference. The height doesn't affect the all around working ability of a dog. I have a smooth bitch that is about 23 1/2 inches tall! She is absolutely beautiful! Beautiful body, nice head detail, great temperament. I've had a couple people tell me she has the best collie temperament ever. Smart, loyal, easy going and beautiful body! I had a 26" tall male that several years ago I did a lot of herding with. He was the best herding dog I'd ever seen!

As far as changing the standard. The AKC Collie standard hasn't been changed since May 10, 1977. The FCI Rough standard was last changed January 2009. So you really cannot say your standard has not changed. The AKC standard hasn't changed in over 30yrs.

You need to re read my posts again. You are twisting what I am saying. What I said was my dogs don't all look a like. I said the American Collie looks more like the European collies of the late 1800's and early 1900's... (I never said anything about the eighties. I said 1800's)than the current European dogs do. However my dogs do have a family resemblance to EACH OTHER. Its not like each litter or each generation my dogs look different from each other. When you look at one, you can see this one is obviously closely related to that one... because they have a similar look.. a similar body style, a similar expression etc.... You breed to maintain this, not to change it.

Yes.. Change occurs, however my point is you do not change the standard to meet what the dogs are looking like. YOu breed the dogs to meet the standard. Of course all you came back with for American's changing the standard is height, which is a bunch of BS because again it certainly hasn't affected the original purpose of the Collie -- as a working/farm dog.

Again I think you need to get your head out of your ass and reread the old posts (that are over 1yr old!) I never blamed any of the past, great dogs, for causing any problems for the breed in Europe. These past, great dogs, I thought were beautiful and its a shame there are very few today that still look as classic as they were -- that is the dogs I posted about. The dogs Katamano posted about Sandknocker and Supertramp I didn't care for their look but they do not look as much like the dogs I posted about. Everyone has their own preference in what they like.

I will say over all, the European Rough collie is not to my liking. Just a personal opinion. Some of the smooth Collies I really like... others not so much. I do think it was a shame when the roughs and smooths in Europe were split up into 2 separate breeds, I think it really caused the gene pool to get even smaller than it already was. However based on talking with some of the smooth breeders around Europe, the thing I would fault them on is the lack of coat on their dogs. The smooths seem to have more working ability than the roughs but One breeder told me they thought American smooths had to much coat, but then went on to say the only down side they had with smooths was in the winter months they could not work their dogs because they got to cold. That really defeats the purpose of a working dog, if it can't work all year around, its not much good. I have rough and smooths... I prefer smooths but I do have 3 roughs.. and 4 smooths. I have NEVER in the 16yrs I've had Collies, seen ANY of my dogs, roughs or smooths get cold. Never. They should be able to handle colder weather. My smooths tolerate the cold just as my roughs... and my roughs can tolerate the summer as well as my smooths. When I lived farther north my smooths would curl up and sleep in the snow, they loved it.

I do have a rough x smooth litter due in September. And I have a 12 wk old rough sable bitch that is absolutely beautiful, I've had several breeders ask me if she was forsale, but she is not and will not be leaving! Beautiful body, great head detail for a baby... moves well. I've had several breeders tell me she is the prettiest puppy they have seen in a long time. I'm very excited about this puppy.

As far as my success with my dogs. Well I'm happy with what I have done so far, in the VERY limited time I am able to show them and the limited number of litters I've done. I have only ever had dogs shown at 2 Collie Club of America national specialty shows and I've had 3 dogs class placements... and 1 dog with a class win... all in a VERY large class entries.


Zack - now CH HawkEire Flyin Withou Wings - class placement at the 2005 CCA, smooth open dogs.


Paris - CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel (sired by Zack) - 4th place 6-9 smooth bitch class out of 25 smooth bitch puppies in her class. 2005 CCA. This was her first show and she was 6 months and 3 days old.


Lindsay - Can. CH Armitage Spiritwind Stolen Halo (litter mate to Paris so also sired by Zack).. 1st place rough open blue bitch class at the 2009 CCA. Bred by me, owned by a lady in Canada.


Another picture of Lindsay in the show ring at the 2009 CCA.


Bree - Ptd. Spiritwind Galway Girl. Daughter of Paris (pictured above). 3rd place 6-9 smooth bitch class at the 2009 CCA, pictured 6 1/2 months old. There were 18 in the class.

Basically I have 3 generations of national placements/wins.

And my newest hopeful. Tori - still haven't decided on a registered name. Born May 2, 2009. She is a Zack (pictured above) great granddaughter.


pictured at 9 wks of age. I need to take some current pictures of her.

Zack was a large male - 26" tall. Paris is a tall bitch. 23 1/2 inches tall. Lindsay is probably 22-23" tall. Bree is a small bitch, she is 21-22" tall.

Wow, that seems to have hit the spot!
The only reason that i brought up the height thing was to illustrate that whilst banging on about not changing the standard your country had in fact done so! why was this, was it because your dogs were being bred too big for the original standard? Further to this after rightly pronouncing that breeders should breed to the standard you then go on to say that you have taken upon yourself to ignore a part of the standard and put it down to personal preference, if you can do this in one part of the standard why not in another, perhaps we should all breed not to the standard but our personal preferences where do you think that would lead us?

You say that the F.C.I changed the standard but it is the U.K. standard that is the breed standard and is adopted by the F.C.I., some while ago the British Kennel Club asked for standards to be simplified in the wording this was done but no changes were made to dimensions, measurements, faults or virtues!

I apologise for misreading your para on the 1800s not eighties! There you go an apology WOW!

You say that all of your dogs have a family likeness well of course if you breed to type they should, i think one of the complaints of Katamano was actually that too many of the dogs in Europe followed the type of the two dogs, now dead, that she was slating! and by the way it was the comments of Katamando that got me at it, so much so that this is the first forum that I have ever posted to!

In your next paragraph you once again refer to the height thing you say it's B.S. and go on to say that it doesn't affect their working ability, fine but change the standard you did, live with it or as in your case choose not breed to that part of the standard! by the way thanks for admitting that change occurs in the same paragraph.

To have a discussion about the different types in the U.S. & Europe is futile because the differences are so great, i fully understand that your personal opinion is that you do not like the european type as i am sure most Americans will not either, of course this feeling is reciprocated by most , not all, breeders in Europe and is completely natural when you see the respective dogs.

When you talk about the standard and the type of dogs that you breed/like you pay much more attention to the working aspects of collies than the show standard. Whilst I understand that this may be your "cause celebre" we are discusing show dogs i believe not working dogs, and before you say that they should be able to work you will only know that when you try to train each indivual dog! Back to the ringside,the head for instance has as many or more points of reference in the standard than the rest of the dog put together, 34 points of reference in the head in total. It is my belief that whilst of course construction and soundness are of vital importance, it is the head and the unique expression of a Rough Collie that Sets it apart from other breeds. A rough collie that does not have a good head and expression is just a dog with long hair!

Thank you for the photo's they were very interesting.

Lastly you chide me for not listing my activties, breeding and achievements but you will just have to take it (or not) that i have done ok! I don't want to give the game away but suffice it to say that i have bred Rough collies, not smooths very successfully over more years than i care to remember, I judge both roughs and smooths both in the U.K. and Internationally.

There, that was all a bit more civilised wasn't it?

Regards Boozer.

Boozer wrote:Wow, that seems to have hit the spot!
The only reason that i brought up the height thing was to illustrate that whilst banging on about not changing the standard your country had in fact done so! why was this, was it because your dogs were being bred too big for the original standard? Further to this after rightly pronouncing that breeders should breed to the standard you then go on to say that you have taken upon yourself to ignore a part of the standard and put it down to personal preference, if you can do this in one part of the standard why not in another, perhaps we should all breed not to the standard but our personal preferences where do you think that would lead us?

Ok.. apparently you are to closed minded to really understand anything. There is NO perfect dog. Every dog has a fault. There are NO dogs, of ANY breed, on the face of this earth that meets its breed standard 100%. EVERY dog has a fault or faults. You have to pick and choose and hope to improve on those faults each generation, while maintaining what you ALREADY have. Yes, I have some dogs that are on the smaller side of the AKC standard. But in consideration of EVERYTHING else in the standard I'd take a smaller dog with a gorgeous head piece and correct body with wonderful movement. When you breed you can't ONLY fault judge a dog. You have to look at its virtues. Does it have the virtues you want to take on to the next generation???? Then who the hell cares if its a 1/2 inch or so undersize. Size is not hard to get back.

EVERYONE breeds their dogs to their own vision of the correct collie. They use one standard (in the US and Canada) but everyone has their own idea of what that standard means. What they can tolerate what they can't. I'll tell you one thing I cannot stand to even look at and will not keep in my own dogs. High set, short, curly "gay" tails.. something MANY European Collies have. I've watched Youtube videos of European Dog shows, posted on the other forums I go to. This is something I noticed on many roughs. Yes, there are American Collies with this as well.. but its something I cannot stand to look at and will not keep a dog in my breeding program with a horrible tail like this. It completely throws off the look of the dog when gaiting.

But EVERYONE, in EVERY country around the world.. no matter what standard you use, everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Everyone, while breeding as close to the standard as they can, still has their own eye and their own likes and dislikes. This is how you get different looks in families, while dogs in different countries look different. Or just different parts of a country look different. Not ALL European collies look the same. Not all American collies look the same. It doesn't mean they don't meet the standard, they very well can. IF every dog had to look exactly the same to meet a breed standard it would be pretty boring.

As far as changing the height requirement in the standard that happened long long ago, not last year. When breeders from Europe talk about the American's changing the breed standard this is the only thing that ever comes up. I have found websites listing the changing breed standards of the Collies in Europe changing multiple times since the late 1800's. The European standard has been changed a number of times. You say the change to the FCI standard was just to a simplified in the wording, but this just makes the standard even more vague and gives even more room for people to breed away from the standard.

Boozer wrote:You say that the F.C.I changed the standard but it is the U.K. standard that is the breed standard and is adopted by the F.C.I., some while ago the British Kennel Club asked for standards to be simplified in the wording this was done but no changes were made to dimensions, measurements, faults or virtues!

I apologise for misreading your para on the 1800s not eighties! There you go an apology WOW!

You say that all of your dogs have a family likeness well of course if you breed to type they should, i think one of the complaints of Katamano was actually that too many of the dogs in Europe followed the type of the two dogs, now dead, that she was slating! and by the way it was the comments of Katamando that got me at it, so much so that this is the first forum that I have ever posted to!

Ok.. well it might have been Katamano who's comments caused you to post on the forum, but your first post was very rude and had my name in the post, so it included me, even though you know nothing about me, my dogs or my experience with Collies.

Boozer wrote:In your next paragraph you once again refer to the height thing you say it's B.S. and go on to say that it doesn't affect their working ability, fine but change the standard you did, live with it or as in your case choose not breed to that part of the standard! by the way thanks for admitting that change occurs in the same paragraph.

I would suggest slowing down and actually reading what I write. I said the European's talk that the American's changed the standard so much. I said that was BS, when all they talk about in reference to changing the standard is height. Again, let me ask you. If you say I don't breed to the standard. So you are saying every dog you bred met the standard 100%?? I think not, I'm sure since you seem to think you are some high and mighty person, you think your dogs did meet the standard 100%, but no dogs do. If you ever bred a dog with a slight full stop or a receded backskull, or a short back, or a curly, high set, gay tail you weren't breeding to the standard either!!!

Boozer wrote:To have a discussion about the different types in the U.S. & Europe is futile because the differences are so great, i fully understand that your personal opinion is that you do not like the european type as i am sure most Americans will not either, of course this feeling is reciprocated by most , not all, breeders in Europe and is completely natural when you see the respective dogs.

This I will agree with you on. Though I do know several breeders, personally, who have sold a number of Collies (rough and smooths) to different breeders in Europe. But, yes, I will agree with this....

Boozer wrote:When you talk about the standard and the type of dogs that you breed/like you pay much more attention to the working aspects of collies than the show standard. Whilst I understand that this may be your "cause celebre" we are discusing show dogs i believe not working dogs, and before you say that they should be able to work you will only know that when you try to train each indivual dog! Back to the ringside,the head for instance has as many or more points of reference in the standard than the rest of the dog put together, 34 points of reference in the head in total. It is my belief that whilst of course construction and soundness are of vital importance, it is the head and the unique expression of a Rough Collie that Sets it apart from other breeds.

Now this statement of yours "When you talk about the standard and the type of dogs that you breed/like you pay much more attention to the working aspects of collies than the show standard. "

This is a bunch of BS. Why?? Because I think breeders should focus on the original purpose of the dog, as well as the conformation of the dog. Really the two follow each other. A dog with poor conformation is not going to be able to hold up well as a working dog. Yes, in the past I have done herding... obedience, agility, flyball.. all sorts of stuff with my dogs. My main focus is on conformation, but I have done other things to prove my dogs aren't just stupid fluffy dogs that can run around a ring. They can still do what they were bred to do.

Your belief is that working ability is not important to a collie anymore, is one reason so many people who do performance events think collies are stupid, lazy, badly bred house pets.

Maybe its because Collies are hardly used for anything but for show or pets in Europe, but you can do both with a show dog. I know many breeders who have TOP ranked Collies, that also work sheep.... or do other performance events. Its sad that a breeder who claims to want to keep the collie breed going, such as you do, thinks that maintaining the working heritage of the collie is not important.

Yes, the AKC standard also talks a large portion about the head qualities of the collie. However as Steve Field of Parader Collies (one of the most influential Collie breeders in the US back in the early/mid 1900's said, "A Collie is a herding breed, it does not walk on its head" You can have a dog with a perfect head piece, correct body and working ability!!

Boozer wrote:A rough collie that does not have a good head and expression is just a dog with long hair!

Yes, and a Collie without any working ability is not a true Collie, just a lazy house pet

There you go again slating the European dogs ........ did i once say anything bad in this post about American dogs? I think not!

I think it hilarious that the first place that you start when assessing and complaining about your likes and dislikes is the dogs arse!

Given your reply I think this time it is you that needs to read the post more carefully because you are well wide of the mark in answering what i wrote!
Antway i am becoming bored and this will be my last post as it is obvious that we will probably be unable to agree what colour black is so there is no point to continuing!
But believe it or not, i do wish you future success in whatever you want to do with your dogs.

Bye Bye,

Boozer

I have no problem with European dogs. As I have said several times. Everyone has their own idea of the prefect Collie. I just stated my opinion just as you have stated yours. Your are entitled to that, just as I am.

Though based on your post I'm guessing you have bred dogs with those high set, curly gay tails.... Oh no, you didn't breed to the standard! You said I didn't because I have a bitch who is under the size standard (even though her sire is 26" tall and her dam is 23 1/2" tall). Americans (and Canadians) prefer the larger dogs. Unfortunately there are a lot more smaller collies theses days. Apparently the horrible tail sets don't bother you. That's exactly what I was posting about. EVERYONE has their own idea of what they like or not. What they could put up with, and what they can't tolerate. You must be able to tolerate the high, curly, incorrect tails.

Seeing that you twist everything I have posted, its hard to answer your posts to your liking.

As far as tail set goes, that was just a VERY easy, obvious thing to bring up because its not hard to see. If you don't see it, you are truly blind.

I'm not saying I like this dog.. but this is the sort of tail set I prefer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uCpc23ytlg

2008 Euro Dog Show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh0ZoD-0dBs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAbXp9L5wY8

You can see the difference of tail set. I never said it was ONLY European dog with this tail set, read the post again, sure American collies also have it, I just will not keep anything with these horrible tail sets. Once you get it in your line of dogs, its hard to breed out. Besides that, its been shown that MOST dogs with bad tail sets tend to have badly constructed rears. I'm NOT saying the dogs in the videos have bad rears, its hard to see much in these videos.... other than the tail. I'm just posting what I've read and heard from other breeders.

I don't know why you are complaining about height anyway, when it appears the only thing you care about are the heads. I think my dogs have gorgeous heads. Paris, Amy and Bree.. beautiful profile, no depth of head, not flared, good strong underjaw, stop just where it needs to be.

I thought this would be interesting to see....

Rough and Smooth Collie at 2009 Crufts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUb545UOxEE


Rough Collies at 2009 Westminster

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1004401

Smooth Collies at 2009 Westminster

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1004002

Well that was all very interesting.
Like Boozer i gave it up as a bad job and this will be my last post on the subject.
I checked out the videos and your dogs move well and believe me i have had some good movers in my time , but i will be honest and say that i find the heads on your dogs ugly (Incidently i do not look for a deep stop this is wrong } The eye placement is totally foreign to me and the fashion of fixing the ears does nothing to improve it. Also when breeding how do you breed for natural ears when you insist on fixing your puppies so young?
In England what you see is what you bred, no artificials. At least we know which dogs to breed to , their faults arent tampered with.WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET

IMPORTANT THINGS that should be thought about when viewing the video.
The European dogs are handled by their owners and often they do not get the best from the dogs,unlike the Americans who use more professional handlers.(unless spiritwind is one of the men handling in the photos}
The collies in Europe are owned by people from all walks of life, some show their dogs literally on a shoe string and most are companions before they are showdogs.
You cannot generalise on the dogs in a country from 1or 2 shows(certainly not in England) Many factors like the judge on the day and location make a huge difference to the collies that are entered.
As for crufts many a good dog never makes it because of coat or a bitch nursing a litter. If you want to see the best in uk or any country you need to visit the breeders, or the main collie club shows

By the way Tramp or Sandknocker did not fly their tails. not as much as your dog in the video liifts it.although other dogs of their time did. Also bare in mind that they where competing in entries of 200+ collies in the 80s.
Tramp sired most of the crufts certificate winners in his time and gave me the last collie to win a working group in the uk(they splt pastoral and working a few years later}.

s
Also remember that i only bred Tramp, i did not control how people bred to him afterwards, you said i was looking to blame dogs(which in fact was not true} but it is what our friend on here is doing because they are the most common dogs within the pedigrees.i THINK IF SHE HAD MORE KNOWLEDGE OF THE DOGS ON THE PEDIGREE IT WOULD HELP.
If you wish to view my cv on collies . checkout Brilyncollies.com. If they displease you then tough because they pleased a lot of other people.
Spiritwind i wish you well with your collies,as for Katamona can i suggest Tropical fish might be a more rewarding hobby, at least she can avoid Tramp and Sandknocker[

I'm assuming when you say "your" dogs you mean American dogs and not my own personal dogs, because I have not said anything negative about anyone's own personal dog. I never made those comments about Supertramp and Sandknocker, Katamona made. But if you want to take things personal and talk about own personally owned dogs I can certainly do it as well.

As far as my own dogs are concerned, as I have said before I do not care what you or anyone else think of my dogs, I love them. I am happy with them, I have done well with them, and I think they are beautiful.

As I said before, everyone has their own idea of what the ideal collie is. As far as heads go, over here, most think the same of "your" dogs (as in European)... we find they have a chow chow like expression, slanted foreign eyes, snippy muzzles and weak underjaws, with WAY to much coat. As far as a deep stop goes, I'm not sure where you got that. I agree, this is wrong. I never said anything about a deep stop. I said a deep head, which is totally different, but also incorrect.

As far as the ears go, its not called "fixing" ears. Its called bracing. And there are plenty of natural eared dogs. If you want to see some natural eared dogs...



Paris has natural ears, not touched. All through her puppy days.... and they still look good today!


This bitch also has natural ears. She was sold as a baby and her owner did nothing with them. She came back here to me in January and her ears are beautiful!

I find it funny, though, that you are worried about natural ears, but, and maybe you aren't like this, but Boozer certainly didn't care about keeping the natural working ability in the collie, but natural ears, those are important.

But again, we could say the same thing about ears on the dogs over there. That they are to heavy or not set properly on the head. Again, just another persons opinion on what is correct. It doesn't mean one person is right and the other wrong... or vise versa.

brian wrote:
IMPORTANT THINGS that should be thought about when viewing the video.
The European dogs are handled by their owners and often they do not get the best from the dogs,unlike the Americans who use more professional handlers.(unless spiritwind is one of the men handling in the photos}
The collies in Europe are owned by people from all walks of life, some show their dogs literally on a shoe string and most are companions before they are showdogs.

Yes.. I agree, in North America many people use handlers, though there are still many owner/handlers in Collies. Some breeds (like the German Shepherd, Boxer, Dobie, its ALL handlers) but Collies still have a large number of owner/handlers or breeder/owner/handlers. The only reason I posted those video's was to show tail set and carriage, nothing more. Handlers cannot make a dog put a tail up or down, or over its back while moving. Per the Collie breed standard, tail should not be carried over the back.. and should have a slight curve at the end... but not be curly. Again, I'm not saying ONLY European dogs do this, I have seen American dogs do it, I am just saying that is one thing I cannot stand. I have had a couple dogs in the past do this, and finally I just spayed them and put them in a pet home.

As far as show dog vs. companion. My dogs are my companions, they are raised in the the house, they go for rides in the car, they are treated like normal dogs... and then are shown.

and as for the video's. None of the dogs in the video's are my dogs. They are just video's I found to show what I think of, when I think of correct or incorrect tail sets. Tails shouldn't be culred up over the back, right at the base of the tail. It should come straight out at the back.. with a slight twist at the end. If the dog isn't real "into" being shown, it might be held lower, but it should not be curled over the back. I've seen this in more videos than just these.

brian wrote:You cannot generalise on the dogs in a country from 1or 2 shows(certainly not in England) Many factors like the judge on the day and location make a huge difference to the collies that are entered.
As for crufts many a good dog never makes it because of coat or a bitch nursing a litter. If you want to see the best in uk or any country you need to visit the breeders, or the main collie club shows

Shouldn't the same then, be said about our dogs?? You are making generalized comments about American dogs based on pictures and video's too.. unless you have actually came over to see the dogs in person yourself.

brian wrote:Also remember that i only bred Tramp, i did not control how people bred to him afterwards, you said i was looking to blame dogs(which in fact was not true} but it is what our friend on here is doing because they are the most common dogs within the pedigrees.

Yes.. I agree. Once you sell a dog, you cannot control how people breed him. However you lost me on the second part of this quote: "you said i was looking to blame dogs(which in fact was not true} but it is what our friend on here is doing because they are the most common dogs within the pedigrees"

I never said anything about anyone blaming anyone for anything??? Unless it was Katamona you are talking about here....

brian wrote:Spiritwind i wish you well with your collies,as for Katamona can i suggest Tropical fish might be a more rewarding hobby, at least she can avoid Tramp and Sandknocker

Ok.. so I'm guessing that last part was about Katamona then. As I have tried not to say anything negative about dogs personally owned/bred by people in this conversation. Really the only reason I have posted what I have is because Boozer's very first post, which was incredibly rude, included my name in his rant, then once he posted his opinions of American dogs, I felt I should also post my own opinion. But again, these are just MY opinions.

I think everyone on this forum loves Collies. Regardless of where they live, where they show, what standard they follow. I may not care for most (though not all) of the European bred dogs, just as you may not care for dogs from North America, but I will still try respect other breeders views and opinions as long as they can also respect mine.

I will just make it short for now, it's just a small intervention.

I would just want to ask all people involved here to not stop posting. Making exception of the few disagreements and some mean and sharp words, that shouldn't find the place in a normal dialogue, I would say that the topic really became interesting, I wouldn't put an end to it quite now.

I would love to ask Boozer and Brian to not stop posting, it is not productive, maybe adopting a calmer dialogue would produce something really interesting to read?! I was expecting such a dialogue right from the beginning, when I opened this topic. Please adopt a new style of expressing words, but please don't stop posting, it surely doesn't do any good...

And it would be lovely if Boozer would reveal his identity, it is more normal to talk to someone when you know who he is...


And as we finally speak honest, it is really getting interesting and I now feel the need to express my honest opinion also. So I will be back in a short while...

Well, as I said, I am back with some personal comments.

I have tried before, one year ago, to write my personal opinions, beliefs and impressions but my post was deleted, don't know why....

From what I have observed till now, I can say that the dominant characteristics of a European Collie nowadays is a beautiful head and a thick and attractive coat. But in the run to obtaining these two characteristics, I strongly believe that most breeders have sacrificed construction, good bodies. This element has lead further to bad or even very bad movement. Also, head selection was mostly based on expression, many breeders make abstraction of the other elements a ideal Collie-head should have and this has caused in years a small head, with short muzzle and underjaw and many other lacks... I also believe that many countries in Europe have developed their "own type of Collie". We can find parts of Europe with Collies having heads with very deep stops (although these heads may look lovely, they're simply not Collie-like, I'd say more bear-type), countries that have a large stock of under-sized Collies, countries that have Collies with huge huge coats and I could say much more on this subject. The main idea here is that neither of these breeders do not breed to the standard. Character of Collie has been also somehow "lost on the way", in the run of obtaining the "perfect show Collie". But there is no such thing as a perfect Collie, especially when temperament is lost :-( These are very few of my impressions based on what I see in Europe. I won't say a word about American Collies' temperaments as I haven't had the chance to meet any.

But turning back to the American Collies, what I like a lot in them is the lovely body construction and their lovely movement. I would change heads on most of them if I could (I don't want to offend anybody here and neither in my other paragraph), and maybe I would add some more coat, not the hugest one, but more coat for sure!

And as a summary, if I somehow could do that, I would take some bodies from America and add some coats and improved heads on then and maybe then I could have an ideal Collie :-) or not?!

I am very tired today and that's the reason I was so brief, I'll sure be back with more, but would love to gather here more people and all their impressions. That's the idea of a forum in my head, a place where people express in a polite way, their ideas and feelings.

I don't have much time to write, as I have to leave for work soon, but I'll write little bit.... and keep it polite (was we did last year when this thread first started) as long as others are polite as well.....

As far as American Collies go... I'm not going to say that this should be changed or that should be changed. I personally feel this is more of an individual thing, that needs to be decided based on each family of dogs. For instance, I just bred my champion smooth bitch, she has a beautiful body, I love her head overall. What I would change about her, is less width between her eyes... and MAYBE a slightly leaner head. The stud dog (a rough tri) that she was bred to, SHOULD be able to improve on this.

As far as the American Collie heads, obviously that is just a personal preference. Just as American's would change the European Collie head, the Europeans would change the American collies head. I love the look, and the qualities of my Collies.

I look back dogs in History 100 or more years ago... the head of the American Collie is not something new. Its been around for a long time.


Such as Anfield Model who was born in 1902. His head looks VERY much like today's American Collies. I'm not going to say he is a great representation of the breed. Obviously pictures don't show everything, and everything I have read about this dog was his temperament was not great. I am speaking purely on head qualities here. I have a book full of pictures of Collies from the late 1800's to early 1900's. Head qualities back then resemble more so of what American Collies look like today... in my opinion. Of course you like what you see. As I said above.. I'm sure most European breeders would change the american collie head... just as the American breeders would change the European collies head.

As far as coat on American Collies. No way.. I would NOT want the amount of coat that some of the European Collies have. I think its not real functional. Per the breed standard the coat should be well fitted. I know there are some Roughs in america that don't carry much coat, however the majority carry a very good coat, and correct to the standard. The coat needs to protect the Collie from the elements while its working (herding/working sheep)... it needs to keep them warm in the winter and cooler in the summer. I have yet to see any of my Collies... rough or smooth, ever get cold. They can go out in the rain and come back in and only the outter coat is wet.. the undercoat is still nice and dry.. as is their skin.

As far as the European dogs (and I know different parts of Europe have different types of Collies)... I would give them more muzzle and underjaw. Most (not all) that I have seen, just based on pictures seems to be snippy in muzzle with weak underjaws. I've seen some, based on pics, that seem to have to much stop. I would (of course) give most of them a bit less coat. Some of them need more bone and substance... and I've seen a few in pictures that seemed a bit to short in back... and not enough length of neck.

I posted this picture on a European based Smooth Collie Forum and they LOVED this picture, they thought this bitch was gorgeous. This is a 6 month old puppy... as the head lengthens they will loose some underjaw but not a lot!

No depth of head.. nice, tight lip line. Really nice profile, especially for a baby.

Another thing I just thought of, and would like your opinion on....

I love to just surf the web and look at Collie breeder websites, from all over the world. Australia, Europe, Japan, Canada, different breeders all over the US.

Anyway.. one thing I have noticed is that the European Smooth Collies, obviously there are differences between them and North American Collies, but from what I have seen from pictures and also from talking to breeders, the European Smooth Collies resemble the American Collies much more closely than the European Roughs do.... as far as body and head qualities go. Which I do find interesting. I know in Europe the two varieties were split up into two separate breeds several years back, but the standards, for the most part, have remained the same, but the dogs are very different.

Talking to several smooth breeders in Europe, I have gotten mixed feelings from them.. as to why this is. Most seem to think the European Smooth is a much better working dog and has retained the working heritage better than the Rough.

Any views on this, I would be very interested in hearing. I've already talked to other breeders on the smooth Collie forum, and have smooth breeders opinion on this... but I would be interested in hearing what the Rough Collie breeders think of this. This is particularly interesting to me, because, luckily (in my opinion) the Rough and Smooth are considered two varieties of the same breed in North America and so there for can, and often are, interbred. So I'm just curious what other people think...

Most of my litters I have had over the years have been rough x smooth breedings.... on occasion I have done Rough x Rough. I prefer rough x smooth though. I have a rough x smooth litter due in Sept, but I will be doing a rough x rough breeding this fall.